if you don't read the comments, you should. lotta fun stuff goin on down there.
to anonymous: please register and use a name! that way we won't confuse you with the other anonymous's out there. it will also give you an identity so that we can engage you in conversation and not get all sarcastic. and no need to put the post to rest. there's still a lot to discuss here.
thanks john and sunny for your brilliant rebuttals. you make me proud to have such smart, articulate friends. i wish i could put things so consicely. but let's not scare anonymous away! you, anonymous, are the perfect person with which to engage this discussion. you're more open minded than most and not overtly hateful in your objections.
i think the big question is, how, exactly, is straight marriage harmed by the inclusion of gay marriage? yes yes the definition is changed - it's more inclusive - but how are actual marriages changed?
also, i'm curious - do you think homosexuality is a choice? you say that it 'ebbs and flows.' do you feel that it's a 'trend' rather than a biological inevitability present in countless animal species?
i understand your moderate point of view - the problem is that the passage of these amendments fuel the fires of homophobia across the country. it says loud and clear: take your committed relationships elsewhere. You may not see it as a hate based initiative, but you must understand that those who do hate see these amendments as a godsend, literally.
to anonymous: please register and use a name! that way we won't confuse you with the other anonymous's out there. it will also give you an identity so that we can engage you in conversation and not get all sarcastic. and no need to put the post to rest. there's still a lot to discuss here.
thanks john and sunny for your brilliant rebuttals. you make me proud to have such smart, articulate friends. i wish i could put things so consicely. but let's not scare anonymous away! you, anonymous, are the perfect person with which to engage this discussion. you're more open minded than most and not overtly hateful in your objections.
i think the big question is, how, exactly, is straight marriage harmed by the inclusion of gay marriage? yes yes the definition is changed - it's more inclusive - but how are actual marriages changed?
also, i'm curious - do you think homosexuality is a choice? you say that it 'ebbs and flows.' do you feel that it's a 'trend' rather than a biological inevitability present in countless animal species?
i understand your moderate point of view - the problem is that the passage of these amendments fuel the fires of homophobia across the country. it says loud and clear: take your committed relationships elsewhere. You may not see it as a hate based initiative, but you must understand that those who do hate see these amendments as a godsend, literally.
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I have no issue with gays being eligible for dependent status and even having eligibility for tax breaks/other legal rights associated with marriage based on couple status. But I feel that there are other ways to achieve this besides re-defining marriage for the whole society.
So from my perspective, I don't feel gay individuals should be treated unfairly, but I don't feel the need to have the definition of marraiage redefined to accomplish this. Why not give the same benefits of marriage to gay couples under another umbrella or another term? Isn't that a comprimise that we could come to that would allow both sides of the issue to have success?
The question about homosexuality and choice is interesting. I feel it is a choice. I feel it is a choice just like being "straight" is a choice.
I think we are born with sex drive and that we have natural attractions. I believe that in many cases those attractions are to the opposite sex. However, I also know that there are those who have attractions to the same sex.
I think that individuals must choose which attraction to act upon. If one subscribes to a biblical moral perspective, one would be inclined to believe that the relationship between a man and woman would be the choice to make - and that even if those feelings toward the same sex were there, they should be suppressed.
If one subscribes to the belief that the biblical moral perspecive is wrong or not an issue, then I could easily see how one would not feel any issue with following desires/attractions to either the same sex or opposite sex.
Not looking at this from a "moral" perspective, but simply the "choice" perspective, I would liken it to lying. All of us are inclined to lie, but that doesn't make lying right. Whether you're gay or straight, if your mate has an affair behind your back, we would all feel and do feel violated and lied to. This is a choice a person makes. He or she may feel very attracted to someone, but if he/she has committed to a relationship, he/she should be true to that partner. That is common decency and respect.
The fact that one may feel attracted to another person besides their partner does not mean they should have sex with that other person. A choice has to be made to be loyal to the one you have committed to or not.
I don't judge those who choose to be gay. I believe God gives us choices. However, I also believe we must all understand the consequences of our choices. Gay or straight, our daily and lifelong choices have consequences.
Just because we may feel inclined to do something, doesn't make it right. I have been in the store many times and wanted clothes, or shoes, or something else that I didn't have the money to buy. But I didn't walk off with it because it didn't belong to me.
I may feel very attracted to a co-worker, but I would never allow those feelings to go very far (fantasy or otherwise) because I have committed to my spouse and I know that would hurt her very much. Not to mention, in my case, I have children to think about.
Lastly, if I did feel attracted to a man, I wouldn't want to act upon those feelings because I subscribe to the biblical moral belief that sexual relationships were meant to be between a man & woman.
I know that my beliefs seem "archaic" and "throwback" to many, but I don't feel hatred toward those that do not believe the same way I do. I do; however, feel that gay individuals should at least think about God and what the bible says. I say that very carefully, because I want you to notice that I have said "what the bible says". Not what I have said, or your friends or enemies or someone else has said.
There are a lot of Christians who are hard headed, difficult, hard liners who don't show very much love and consideration. That's not what I know Christ to be at all. Christ Himself didn't like the religious crowd when He was on earth. He had some choice words to say about them.
I guess I'm saying that I'm a Christian who wants to understand and be understood. I don't have any hateful feelings and I'm not full of judgement. That's not my place. I am not qualified to judge considering the crap in my own life and what I've had to deal with.
But I can tell you this, God has been good to me and I know He loves us ALL...ALL OF US. The bible says that. And because of that, I think it's worth reading some of the bible. If it's all a lie, or false and untrue, or even irrelevant for today - then it will not hurt anything to read and consider. If it is true, then what does it say about sexual relationships and how those relationships should be? We should all read a little more about it and consider what it means to each of us individually.
I wish you all well and I'll sign off for now.
Well, I'll try and jump in here with some comments about all this stuff in general. Probably I don't have anything particularly new or insightful to say . . .
My husband and I didn't even react when Kerry made his comment about Cheney's daughter, except to be relieved that he didn't try to come up with some gobbletygook to avoid answering. It wasn't until the next day that I heard people - very liberal, accepting-of-gay-marriage people - saying that it was wrong of Kerry to bring up someone "by name." I was surprised, and started wondering why we hadn't seen it that way, so it was interesting to read what Joe wrote in this blog - that if you don't see homosexuality as evil, you don't regard Kerry's comment as insulting.
In regard to gay marriage - I just don't see where someone else getting married has anything to do with MY marriage. I don't get what all the panic is about. Now, when I hear about zillions of people getting divorces or having affairs, that's when I feel a touch of fear, because I see how easy it is for things to fall apart. Maybe we should make it unconstitutional to get a divorce! There's an idea!!
In regard to Christians taking the stance that homosexuality is "wrong" because it "says so" in the Bible - it also says not to judge other people. If it's wrong, just relax and let God take care of it. Live your own life and don't worry about making sure other people get into Heaven.
It is not my business who an adult is in love with (as long as it's another consenting adult). It may be interesting, in a gossipy sort of way, to wonder if someone is gay or straight, or maybe it gives you a piece of the puzzle you put together as you get to know a person, but that's as far as it goes. And whether it is a choice or whether a person is born that way, that doesn't affect me, either. Why would I care?
Sadly, a lot of people do fear homosexuality like little children fear monsters under the bed. When you reach a certain level of development, you realize there ARE no monsters and you can relax. Unfortunately, the bogeyman marched a little too close for those people's comfort when gay marriages started taking place (or attempting to take place) here and there. And I really think that it's because of THAT that we are stuck with 4 more years of Bush.